2024-11-18 Meeting notes
- Craig McNally
- Maccabee Levine
Date
Attendees
- Craig McNally
- Ingolf Kuss
- Julian Ladisch
- Maccabee Levine
- Charlotte Whitt
- VBar
- Jenn Colt
- Jakub Skoczen
- Florian Gleixner
- Taras Spashchenko
- ...
Discussion items
| Time | Item | Who | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 min | Scribe | All | Marc Johnson is next Maccabee Levine will take notes today. Reminder: Please copy/paste the Zoom chat into the notes. If you miss it, this is saved along with the meeting recording, but having it here has benefits. |
| 5-10 min | Liaison Updates |
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| 1 min | Upcoming Meetings | All |
Topics for dedicated discussions:
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| 5-10 min | TCR Board Review | All |
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| 5 min | Technical Council Sub-Groups Updates | Static Code Analysis
Developer Documentation
Reference Data Upgrades
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| 1 min | All | I don't think there's anything to discuss here. Reminder to formally close the Go language RFC Marc Johnson Worth discussing whether we want to invite process changes at any time (like some of Julian Ladisch's suggestions) or only after a TCR. | |
| 1 min | Decision Log | All | Nothing new here. |
| 5 min | All | Check Recurring Calendar... | |
| 1 min | TC member changes | All |
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| * | Voting Rules | All | Are we able to make a decision? There were two things we wanted to make a decision on today:
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| NA | Zoom Chat | 00:14:43 Ingolf Kuss: https://github.com/folio-org/.github/blob/master/.github/workflows/go-lint.yml 00:18:49 Jakub: Will do 00:20:46 Marc Johnson: When we include that on the agenda, please can we also include a topic about when to change the module review policies (previously it’s been by recommendation by a sub group) 00:33:33 Ingolf Kuss: I think we agreed that an abstention is the same as "not voting". 00:33:41 Craig McNally: Reacted to "I think we agreed th..." with 👠00:39:43 vbar: What if you don’t allow abstention? 00:39:57 Charlotte: Reacted to "What if you don’t al..." with 👠00:40:29 Charlotte: Yes, I agree Vince. If you are an elected member of the Council, then you should be able to vote Yes or No 00:41:39 Craig McNally: I posed that question last week. There's no way to force someone to vote 00:41:53 Ingolf Kuss: Reacted to "I posed that questio..." with 👠00:42:47 vbar: If you are present and choose not to vote you become absent. So in your example 11 people with 10 abstention => 10 absent, 1 present, no quorum 00:42:56 Jenn Colt: It would pass in that case 00:43:00 Jenn Colt: They don’t 00:43:56 Jenn Colt: an instance of declining to vote for or against a proposal or motion. "a resolution passed by 126 votes to none, with six abstentions" 00:44:51 Jenn Colt: You don’t just add the abstentions to one or the other 00:45:07 Jenn Colt: It’s not 00:46:11 Maccabee Levine: I agree with Jenn. 00:46:31 vbar: An abstention is just a decision to not participate in the vote. The same as being absent. Therefore reducing the quorum 00:46:44 Craig McNally: Reacted to "An abstention is jus..." with 👠00:46:48 Ingolf Kuss: Reacted to "An abstention is jus..." with 👠00:46:49 Florian Gleixner: Usually abstentions should not count for majority calculations. "Simple majority" is defied that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority#Voting_basis 00:46:54 Maccabee Levine: Reacted to "Usually abstentions ..." with ðŸ‘🻠00:46:59 Ingolf Kuss: Reacted to "Usually abstentions ..." with ðŸ‘🻠00:47:37 vbar: You only require 4 votes 00:47:55 vbar: Quorum is 6, majority of which is 4 00:48:50 Ingolf Kuss: https://folio-org.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PC/overview 00:49:20 Marc Johnson: Reacted to "Quorum is 6, majorit…" with 👠00:49:26 Florian Gleixner: For Slack voting we could speedup these if we decide, that if a simple majority is reached, the voting will end. So when 5 people vote for No and 2 people abstain, the we have a simple majority for No. This could happen in some hours and we do not have to wait a full week 00:49:45 Charlotte: Can I suggest to do a write up examples - that might make this much clearer for everyone - and also help everyone to agree around the rules 00:49:54 Craig McNally: Reacted to "Can I suggest to do ..." with 👠00:49:55 vbar: Define quorum as the number who voted, not just the number present. 00:50:18 Ingolf Kuss: Reacted to "For Slack voting we ..." with 👠00:50:22 Florian Gleixner: We should decide about new written down voting rules 00:52:06 Jenn Colt: That was the original but I think that conflicts with what Jakub was saying 00:52:08 Jenn Colt: ?? 00:52:47 Charlotte: Reacted to "Define quorum as the..." with 👠00:54:52 Ingolf Kuss: ++ Marc 00:54:57 Maccabee Levine: Reacted to "++ Marc" with ðŸ‘🻠00:55:49 Marc Johnson: 6 is our current magic number (it happens to be majority of council members) 00:56:07 Marc Johnson: Reacted to "Define quorum as the…" with 👠00:56:20 Ingolf Kuss: Also, in a democratic election, there can be invalid votes (someone makes crosses on all candidates etc.). Those don't count and have the same effect as an abstantion. 00:56:25 Maccabee Levine: I like Jakub's idea to raise the number who should be present. 00:56:45 Marc Johnson: Reacted to "I like Jakub's idea …" with 👠00:56:56 Florian Gleixner: If only the majority of the (minimum 6) present members count, this means in fact, non-presentr members abstain. 00:57:09 Marc Johnson: Replying to "I like Jakub's idea …" Number who should be present or number who voted? 00:57:22 Marc Johnson: Replying to "I like Jakub's idea …" (Abstentions don’t count as voting) 00:57:32 Ingolf Kuss: no 00:57:54 Florian Gleixner: Replying to "I like Jakub's idea ..." this is not clear to me 00:59:08 Ingolf Kuss: Reacted to "If only the majority..." with 👠01:00:32 Jenn Colt: The easiest way to optimize for the most votes is just Slack unfortunately 01:00:40 Marc Johnson: Reacted to "The easiest way to o…" with 👠01:00:45 Maccabee Levine: Reacted to "The easiest way to o..." with 👠01:01:07 Marc Johnson: Reacted to "Can I suggest to do …" with 👠01:01:19 Florian Gleixner: I would prefer simple majority counting all members present or not. So the decision is made, whenever you have > 50% of the votes for yes or no wehere abstains are substracted from the total number of members 01:01:56 Marc Johnson: Replying to "That was the origina…" You were right, I thought I had reflected an agreement and I hadn’t (because I misunderstood Jakub’s stance) 01:02:06 Maccabee Levine: Reacted to "That was the origina..." with ðŸ‘🻠01:02:18 Ingolf Kuss: Replying to "That was the origina..." yes, that is the original proposal. Whenever there is still a Quorum. 01:02:52 vbar: Abstaining to make a political point is a luxury. If have 11 present and 3 abstain, fine it doesn’t reduce the quorum. But if thee attendance is low and some start abstaining that is not productive, they might as well not be there. |
Topic Backlog | ||
| Decision Log Review | All | Review decisions that are in progress. Can any of them be accepted? rejected? |
| Translation Subgroup | All | Since we're having trouble finding volunteers for a subgroup, maybe we can make progress during a dedicated discussion session? |
| Communicating Breaking Changes | All | Currently there is a PoC, developed by Maccabee Levine, of a utility to catalog Github PRs that have been labeled with the "breaking change" label. We would like to get developer feedback on the feasibility of this label being used more often, and the usefulness of this utility. |
| Officially Supported Technologies - Upkeep | All | Previous Notes:
Stripes architecture group has some questions about the Poppy release. Zak: A handshake between developers, dev ops and the TC. Who makes that decision and how do we pass along that knowledge ? E.g. changes in Nodes and in the UI boxes. How to communicate this ? We have a large number of teams, all have to be aware of it. TC should be alerted that changes are happening. We have a couple of dedicated channels for that. Most dev ops have subscribed to these channels. How can dev ops folk raise issues to the next level of community awareness ? There hasn't been a specific piece of TC to move that along. Craig: There is a fourth group, "Capacity Planning" or "Release Planning". Slack is the de facto communication channel. There are no objections to using Slack. An example is the Java 17 RFC. Craig: The TC gets it on the agenda and we will discuss it. The TC gets the final say. Marc Johnson: We shouldn’t use the DevOps Channel. The dev ops folks have made it clear that it should only be used for support requests made to them. Jakub: Our responsibility is to avoid piling up technical debt. Marc: Some set of people have to actually make the call. Who lowers the chequered flag ? Craig: It needs to ultimately come to the TC at least for awareness. There is a missing piece. Capacity Planning needs to provide input here. Marc: Stakeholders / Capacity Planning could make that decision. Who makes the decision ? Is it the government or is it some parts of the body ? Marc: the developers community, the dev ops community and sys ops are involved. For example the Spring Framework discussion or the Java 17 discussion. But it was completely separate to the TC decision. It is a coordination and communication effort. Marc: Maybe the TC needs to let go that they are the decision makers so that they be a moderating group. Jakub: I agree with Marc. But we are not a system operating group. Dependency management should be in the responsibility of Release management. There are structures in the project for that. Jason Root: I agree with Jakub and with Marc also. Policies should drive operational/release/support aspects of Folio. Jason Root: If the idea of “support” is that frameworks are supported, then of course the project should meet that. Marc Johnson Craig: This is a topic for the next Monday session. Craig to see if Oleksii Petrenko could join us to discuss the process for updating the officially supported technologies lists. |
| Dev Documentation Visibility | All | Possible topic/activity for a Wednesday session: Discuss/brainstorm:
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| API linting within our backend modules | All | https://folio-project.slack.com/archives/CAQ7L02PP/p1713343461518409 |
| PR Templates | All | https://folio-project.slack.com/archives/CAQ7L02PP/p1713445649504769 Hello team, Small request to consider. Regarding pr templates.
What I suggest is that, pr template shouldn't be any instructions, because most developer who are creating pr have already understand the rules. If we put just two section into template, it will encourage developers to write more about their work and that lead to knowledge sharing among developers. |
| Proposed Mod Kafka | All | https://folio-project.slack.com/archives/CAQ7L02PP/p1714471592534689 Mike Taylor Proposal. If and only if a FOLIO instance is running Kafka, it should insert and enable a module called mod-kafka, which consists entirely of a module descriptor that says it provides the interface kafka. The purpose is so that other modules can use the standard <IfInterface> and similar tools to determine whether they should attempt Kafka operations. Rationale: the FOLIO ILS depends absolutely on Kafka, but other uses of the platform will not. One such example: a dev platform that includes only mod-users, used as a source of change events for Metadb. |