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Discussion items

TimeItemWhoNotes
1 minScribeAll

Florian Gleixner 

Reminder:  Please copy/paste the Zoom chat into the notes.  If you miss it, this is saved along with the meeting recording, but having it here has benefits.

5-10 minLiaison Updates

Maccabee Levine Tod Olson  Jakub Skoczen  Craig McNally Jenn Colt 

  • CC: Maccabee Levine
    • Two applications for the developer advocate position, group decides to invite one.
    • IndexData is dropping back from some adimistration tasks. Maybe Ebsco will take over some.
  • PC: Tod Olson 
    • PC meetins meetings slot was used by the 3Tri-council meeting
  • RMS Group: Jakub Skoczen 
    • No updates
  • Security Team: Craig McNally No updates, triaging issues.
    • No important updates - business as usual
  • Tri-council Application Formalization: Jenn Colt   is not here.
10 minTCR Board Review

All

  • Jira Legacy
    serverSystem JiraJIRA
    serverId01505d01-b853-3c2e-90f1-ee9b165564fc
    keyTCR-33
    - update from Jenn Colt? Tod Olson No meeting
  • Jira Legacy
    serverSystem JiraJIRA
    serverId01505d01-b853-3c2e-90f1-ee9b165564fc
    keyTCR-35
    - Jeremy Huff will take not yet started
  • Jira Legacy
    serverSystem JiraJIRA
    serverId01505d01-b853-3c2e-90f1-ee9b165564fc
    keyTCR-36
    - Jeremy Huff as well
  • Jira Legacy
    serverSystem JiraJIRA
    serverId01505d01-b853-3c2e-90f1-ee9b165564fc
    keyTCR-37
      - Jeremy Huff Ingolf Kuss Meeting scheduled
1 minUpcoming MeetingsAll
  • - Topic TBDeither Officially supported technologies or Poppy database upgrade scripts? But Ingolf Kuss will first talk to the development teams. Decision will be made offline.
    - TCR Process Improvements 
5-10 min

Technical Council Sub Groups Updates

All

Quick updates only.  If we can't find volunteers for groups, we'll need to add the topic to our backlog and address it during dedicated discussion sessions.

  • Configuration group - RFC has been created so close subgroup and move work to the RFC for configuration, will work on composing the groupNothing new, Olamide Kolawole will take a look at it and will provide comments.
  • Breaking changes - have volunteers Ankita, Zak, Jeremy. Will sort out their next steps
  • Translations - conversations in council
  • TCRs - group still meetingAnkita is not here today
  • Translations -
    • Craig McNally will try to raise topic at the chairs meeting again
    • Maccabee Levine Dropping it when other councils show no interest is OK, but we should note that.
    • Can be pushed as a DEI (Diversity, equity, and inclusion) issue
  • TCR process improvements
    • Maccabee Levine
      •  Will present the draft to the TC on Jan. 31
      • Discussion how to get more people to participate in evaluations
    • Update next week
  • Application formalization RF draft - Craig will work on
    • Craig McNally is working on discussions/comments/questions. Some are resolved, but still work in progress
10 minRFCs

All

RFC Process Improvements:

  • We need another RFC to update the metadata retroactively to reflect the new or adjusted statuses. - Jenn Colt will do this, hasn't finished yet
    • Any volunteers?
    • Holding off on this for now - maybe someone will volunteer after the holidays.nothing new today

Notes: see above

1-5 min

Postgres Messaging

All

The announcements were made before the holidays.  Has anyone received questions / comments on this?  

Ingolf Kuss this has not been addressed at the sysops group yet

No objections. Probably need to ask testing people explicitely. 

See: DR-000038 - PostgreSQL Upgrade to 16

Notes:

Craig McNally will

bump the threads to try to get more feedback

Notes:

no objections from sysops

no other feedback or objections

reach out to the test manager to check if the postgres testing environments are ready to use 12 and 16.

1 minDecision LogAll

Standing agenda item... is there anything in the decision log requiring attention?

5-10 min

Officially Supported Technologies

All

Jenn Colt  to  Everyone 11:10 AM
We can unassigned and reassign me later if that clarifies things.

You  to  Everyone 11:17 AM
I don't think you've screwed anything up Jenn.

Jenn Colt  to  Everyone 11:16 AM
I feel like I have already screwed up my first TCR haha

Tod Olson 11:17 AM
Ha!brb
I think we have the luxury of extra time, given the PC conversation.

Marc Johnson 11:18 AM
Not at all, you are experiencing the _quirks_ of how this stuff plays out in practice

Maccabee Levine  to  Everyone 11:31 AM
I'll bring this to the TCR Process Improvement subgroup, to see how we can improve getting explicit yes/no/don't care from PC

Marc Johnson  to  Everyone 11:32 AM
I thought Charlotte actively brought it to the PC for approval And acknowledged in that meeting that the TC process had already started

Tod Olson 11:32 AM
That was also my take.

Marc Johnson  to  Everyone 11:35 AM
I like Owen’s suggestion, especially as some modules might be more essential for inclusion than others

You  to  Everyone 11:36 AM
I will reach out to the RMS group letting them know the situation, good suggestion @Owen Stephens

Jenn Colt  to  Everyone 11:37 AM
It seems like Owen’s situation of much earlier PC acceptance is more the norm than the DCB/print timelines? At least in the past

Owen Stephens  to  Everyone 11:39 AM
To be fair that’s not the case

Jenn Colt  to  Everyone 11:37 AM
Does PC have a deadline like we do for releases?

Marc Johnson 11:37 AM
Not directly

Marc Johnson 11:43 AM
They are in the informal sequence that leads up to the flower release threshold

Standing agenda item to review/discuss any requested or required changes to officially supported technology lists

  • Check in on progress... does anything else require attention?
  • Next Important Milestone:  Review Ramsons (3rd party dependencies) and move from DRAFT → ACCEPTED by  
    • Maybe we should aim to start looking at this on so we have time for discussion/adjustments.
  • Versions for the components:
    • Resume discussion at an upcoming dedicated topic discussion?
NAZoom Chat

Notes:

Craig McNally Some entries have versions, some not. Last discussion did not lead to a conclusion. Sometimes versions come from dependencies and they are redundant. Probably we should remove versions on some to make things easier?

Marc Johnson Differentiate between infrastructure and other. We cannot support multiple postgres versions at once. Languages and build tools should be the same to make development easier.

Owen Stephens Developers should decide which version to use, TC should give guidelines like the software should be supported.

Marc Johnson For some things no versions work fine, but for some we have to have a common version, for example for stripes and postgres.

Craig McNally Maybe replace the versions on spring and so with links to the support lifecycle of the project

Marc Johnson noone is reviewing modules concerning used versions, so we should remove versions on some.

Tod Olson List supported technologies in flower release pages?

Owen Stephens Maybe list reasons, why a version is written, also helps to decide if we want to remove the versions

Marc Johnson will add reasons and links to Ramsons page.



NAZoom Chat

11:11:22 From Maccabee Levine to Everyone:
    The following Wednesday 1/31 we're scheduled to discuss the TCR Process subgroup's draft PR
11:16:54 From Tod Olson to Everyone:
    SysOps might be a good place for feedback.
11:17:28 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    Replying to "SysOps might be a go…"
    Wouldn’t that be for the public review?
11:19:40 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    What does DEI stand for?
11:21:53 From Matt Weaver to Everyone:
    Diversity, equity, and inclusion (Todd mentioned this, but I’m putting it here anyway, since it’s sometimes hard to tie chat with audio stuff when reading the chat log later 🙂)
11:22:36 From Maccabee Levine to Everyone:
    Replying to "Diversity, equity, a..."
    
    Thank you.  Yeah I apologize for the acronym soup especially with international folks on the zoom
11:24:12 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    Reacted to "Diversity, equity, a…" with 👍
11:36:49 From Tod Olson to Everyone:
    So: versions for technologies where many modules need to agree?
11:37:25 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    They matter partly because of the shared build tooling
11:56:15 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    For first party, we have an existing policy for specific versions per release
11:57:27 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    Do we care if folks are using different versions of spring of vert.x as long as they are supported?
11:58:31 From Tod Olson to Everyone:
    We might not be able to be completely consistent in how we mark up versions, depending on how different tools publish their supported version.
11:58:41 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    Reacted to "We might not be able…" with 👍
11:59:35 From Marc Johnson to Everyone:
    We might be able to describe the reasoning by categories E.g. infrastructure, languages, build tools. first party tools
12:01:05 From Owen Stephens to Everyone:
    Thanks all


Topic Backlog

Decision Log ReviewAll

Review decisions which are in progress.  Can any of them be accepted?  rejected?

Translation SubgroupAllSince we're having trouble finding volunteers for a subgroup, maybe we can make progress during a dedicated discussion session?
Communicating Breaking ChangesAllSince we're having trouble finding volunteers for a subgroup, maybe we can make progress during a dedicated discussion session?
Officially Supported Technologies - UpkeepAll

Previous Notes:

  • A workflow for these pages. When do they transition from one state to another. Do we even need statuses at all ?
  • Stripes architecture group has some questions about the Poppy release.
  • Zak: A handshake between developers, dev ops and the TC. Who makes that decision and how do we pass along that knowledge ? E.g. changes in Nodes and in the UI boxes. How to communicate this ? We have a large number of teams, all have to be aware of it.  TC should be alerted that changes are happening. We have a couple of dedicated channels for that. Most dev ops have subscribed to these channels. How can dev ops folk raise issues to the next level of community awareness ? There hasn't been a specific piece of TC to move that along.
  • Craig: There is a fourth group, "Capacity Planning" or "Release Planning". Slack is the de facto communication channel.  There are no objections to using Slack. An example is the Java 17 RFC. 
  • Craig: The TC gets it on the agenda and we will discuss it. The TC gets the final say.
  • Marc Johnson: We shouldn’t use the DevOps Channel. The dev ops folks have made it clear that it should only be used for support requests made to them.
  • Jakub: Our responsibility is to avoid piling up technical debt.
  • Marc: Some set of people have to actually make the call. Who lowers the chequered flag ?
  • Craig: It needs to ultimately come to the TC at least for awareness. There is a missing piece. Capacity Planning needs to provide input here. 
  • Marc: Stakeholders / Capacity Planning could make that decision. Who makes the decision ? Is it the government or is it some parts of the body ?
  • Marc: the developers community, the dev ops community and sys ops are involved. For example the Spring Framework discussion or the Java 17 discussion. But it was completely separate to the TC decision. It is a coordination and communication effort.
  • Marc: Maybe the TC needs to let go that they are the decision makers so that they be a moderating group.
  • Jakub: I agree with Marc. But we are not a system operating group. Dependency management should be in the responsibility of Release management. There are structures in the project for that.
  • Jason Root: I agree with Jakub and with Marc also. Policies should drive operational/release/support aspects of Folio.
  • Jason Root: If the idea of “support” is that frameworks are supported, then of course the project should meet that.
  • Marc Johnson
    Some group needs to inform OleksAii when a relevant policy event occurs.
    These documents effectively ARE the manifestation of the policy.
  • Craig: This is a topic for the next Monday session.

  • Craig to see if Oleksii Petrenko could join us to discuss the process for updating the officially supported technologies lists.


Dev Documentation VisibilityAll

Possible topic/activity for a Wednesday session:

  • Discuss/brainstorm:
    • Ideas for the type of developer-facing documentation we think would be most helpful for new developers
    • How we might bring existing documentation up to date and ensure it's consistent 
    • etc.

...