Nolana scope update Features planned for Nolana: - UXPROD-3705 - Bulk Edit - User data - in app approach
- UXPROD-3712 - Bulk Edit - in app approach - loan types
- UXPROD-3704 - Bulk Edit - in app approach - holdings locations
- Possibly also: UXPROD-3713 - Bulk Edit - in app approach - item notes
Other features planned but delayed: Bulk edit will need to address existing dependencies and that will require additional work. The feature that was deprioritized by MM SIG: - UXPROD-3707 - Bulk edit - inventory items - csv approach
| - Magda: 13:29: Nolana scope updates--when we met last time I provide provided a few slightly different listlists. So, what is left from what I was showing is bulk edit user data. In-app approach, we will be trying to add an in-app approach for users, so they are in the same pot as item records.
- Magda: 14:07: For Bulk Edit items, we will add support for loan types. We will also support holdings location similarly to the item location as we implemented in Morning Glory. The other features that are planned but delayed is are the Bulk Delete inventory item records and delete user records.
- MadgaMagda: 14:40: After meeting with developers, they are extremely uncomfortable with the fact that not all the dependencies are being handled. First, in inventory, all of them are only handled on the UI. So, we need to recreate them. We also are not confident that all the dependencies are actually identified. You can live with this if only deleting one or two records manuallmanually. But once we started deleting hundreds of records, then this issue will be more visible and prominent. So, the development team proposes a separate approach, not soft delete, which means the record is marked as deleted, but still retained in the database, not hard delete, where the record is removed. The option proposed which is now on the table , is called hybrid delete, which means the record is removed from the main table from the users or items, but it still stays in the temporary table stays there, as long as the user are well defined. So adding this temporary table and having the maintenance of this temporary table is adding to the scope of deletion. We will have a better understanding of how much more work it will entail probably by the end of this week once I meet with the development team and architects.
- Erin: Is there a wiki page?
- Magda: 16:58: It's not the wiki page just yet. There is a Google Doc. I will put this into the chat when I find it. I probably will not find it right now. I will find it. And I will post this into on our Slack channel.
- Erin: 17:13: I guess I'm not sure why creating a brand new table structure is better than doing a soft delete?.
- Erin: 17:35: I understand the reluctance about these features in general, like that makes total sense to me.
- Magda: 17:43: I think inventory is especially difficult. Because all the dependencies right now for manually deleting one item are in the UI. So first of all, we have to implement those on the backend. And then not all of them are implemented. So that is something that we would need to investigate as well.
- Erin: 18:16: Why is the assumption that Firebird would need to do that work versus Prokopovych? is it just like Prokopovych just doesn't have the capacity so Firebird needs to do it?
- Magda: I think no one has the capacity.
- Erin: 18:31: Well sure. But I just ...
- Magda: 18:37: I see JenJenn's comment. It is the client's responsibility. When you say client JenJenn, do you mean the software?
- Jenn: Yeah. Client Yeah.
- Magda: 18:50: So that this the system that is subscribing to the data. I disagree with this approach, to be honest. I fully disagree or partially disagree actually. But we can talk about this maybe during our next meeting, I would like to move on.
- Unknown Speaker 19:09
The Unknown Speaker 19:12
the - Magda: 19:12: The last sentence about
the - deleting item records, there is a parallel initiative that
Unknown Speaker 19:23
- is related to marking inventory instances for deletion that depending on how it
will be implemented.Unknown Speaker 19:32
We - is implemented, we will need to adjust accordingly on our site as well. So more on deletion later, I will put the document in the slack chat after the meeting. This is still
working - a work in progress. More about this probably during our next meeting.
Unknown Speaker 19
, but MMC the preyUnknown Speaker 20:00
notice it about that. Now, , I suggested, we will do So it means it means that user would be able to download the CSV file with the item records make the changes locally uploaded to the CSV, something similar to what we do for users.Unknown Speaker 20:28
Memcache felt that they would rather Unknown Speaker 20:36
invest time in app approach, than for buy, and I'm sick. But go ahead, you have your hand up.Unknown Speaker 20:53
You're muted. Unknown Speaker 20:57
Go ahead and finish this, then I just have a question to go back to the Delete for a second. Okay. Okay. for MM SIG. - Magda: 20:53: So I added the comment to the
to the future. If - feature if anyone is interested, I know some of you
Unknown Speaker 21:13
think sir, was really interested in this, we are - were interested in this, I think Sara. We not going to do it in
the law Probably we - We will probably do it later, in a few releases.
Unknown Speaker 21:26
the planet not Unknown Speaker 21
one thing, . In Atlanta, This was dropped during our meeting alarm an for the item notes to change a meeting with SIGUnknown Speaker 21:56
MMC this Thursday, to . And whatUnknown Speaker 22:07
. Go ahead. WellUnknown Speaker 22
Gen CT was . It the client Unknown Speaker 22
so I'll failed, we over us . When , Unknown Speaker 22
- : I definitely disagree with this approach.
And this is not the - The business logic should not be in the
Unknown Speaker 22:53
- UI, the business logic should not be in
theUnknown Speaker 22:57
scripts, - the client's scripts, and the business logic should be handled consistently through
failure does it - should not matter if you're using
your if - you're using API, the behavior should be the same.
Unknown Speaker 23
- : Thanks that clarifies that.
Thanks.Unknown Speaker 23
about my opinion, this - is my opinion. And this is how we will
be implementing or tried in bulk edit- Bulk Edit. I'm not saying that everybody
else I'm agreeing with with - in FOLIO agrees with this approach. Sara,
sir, Unknown Speaker 23
- : So this is more back to the
deprioritize by mmm, six things- deprioritization by MM SIG. So
we want to finish this first. Go ahead. And then no, do you go? No.Unknown Speaker 23:47
So just just to be double? Sure. So or just, you know, be - just want to be sure I've understood correctly, it's not that it's off the table is just
deeper, it just , but not with - without any kind of definite
Unknown Speaker 24:03
future flour 's an - is kind of an indefinite push off of bulk
inventory - edit of inventory items via CSV approach is that
that's correct. The future - correct?
- Magda: Yes. It is in the backlog. It's just not prioritized at this point. So definitely not for
Alana, depending Unknown Speaker 24:25
- interest we will get from this group
Unknown Speaker 24:29
Unknown Speaker 24:32
- pushing for this functionality?
Unknown Speaker 24:34
and functional Unknown Speaker 24:37
Yeah, I mean, I think down the road I think we're - Sara: 24:37: Yeah, I think it could be especially helpful
is Unknown Speaker 24:48
Well, I have to say I'm sorry, like I feel like I've really been nicked I've totally not I just feel I know I have been neglecting book edit here at this group because of Unknown Speaker 25:00
Going Live and my brain is really an acquisitions right now. And financing fiscal year roll and all these things right. So I'm a little distracted. Unknown Speaker 25:11
I guess the Unknown Speaker 25:13
I do think that like pathwise. And complexity wise, there can be real benefit to being able to do this in a CSV file quantity and complexity of changes, like multiple changes, right, where you have a set of items that have to be there loan type has to change, and they're temporary status. And that just to me seems like a much better thing to handle via the CSV file. So I think I do still advocate for that in the longer term I think having, but I totally understand that in app should come first. So I'm fine with that. I just don't want this to be one of those. Unknown Speaker 25:56
What were we calling them for a while they got some name, things that just then go to the backlog and die slowly in their corner and are never heard again. And then you do some kind of lookup, and you discover that it says 2019 on them or something. Unknown Speaker 26:13
So I agree with you, Unknown Speaker 26:16
Sarah, on this, Unknown Speaker 26:19
because we I saw similar things happening with the decks, that we had stories that were posted later, and we never had a chance to get back to them. Hopefully, we will Unknown Speaker 26:32
have a chance to get to them. But they aren't prioritized. I also agree with you that Unknown Speaker 26:40
CSV is a powerful tool and can help in special cases, too. Unknown Speaker 26:51
To simplify the updates for larger data set or some specific data set, but this is not a tool for everyone, you have to be comfortable with the data set, and be aware of the impact of the changes you are making. So it's definitely more people that would be more comfortable with in app approach. So let's do the inept approach we will not be able to Unknown Speaker 27:15
support all fields in in approach, we will do the most commonly requested Unknown Speaker 27:25
and then CSV approach will be the way to handle the case when you would like to work with other fields. But this is something on our roadmap, not for an alumna and most likely not for Unknown Speaker 27:43
luck, okay, what I would like us to do, which is on our on my list to do we need once we do some work on the inventory, we will start working on some records from circulation and from acquisition then, so we so that we can start the building across Aquarius, but this is something that is starting Unknown Speaker 28:11
that we will be starting to talk in market release or later. Unknown Speaker 28:18
And the question about the dilemma plans Unknown Speaker 28:27
then I will move to the to the feedback that I have received or we have received for from user Unknown Speaker 28:38
accidentally user acceptance testing. But before we do this, I have couple of questions for for those who participated and those who did not participate. Unknown Speaker 28:50
We got only four responses, which is definitely less that I will I was hoping for I understand that the libraries were going live. There was a holiday people were on vacation and on top of it was also the Unknown Speaker 29:10
American Library Association Conference. I think to Unknown Speaker 29:17
to respond to the survey was probably half an hour work and I hope for our next Unknown Speaker 29:29
you, ATS I will get better Unknown Speaker 29:34
feedback. Like more responses. The feedback I got was awesome. People that responded provided a lot of very helpful information. So thank you very much for this. But I have a question to those that reached out to me for the login. I saw they were trying to do the login into the bulk edit. They never responded to survey | Housekeeping | - Please add your name to the attendees list
- No meeting July 26th
| UAT feedback review | - Feedback details: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bH0ZMG2RZte_5Anl8t2-ApcDEUX1AzxzYXn0uUVBq60/edit?usp=sharing
- Magda: 28:38: But before we do this, I have a couple of questions for those who participated and those who did not participate. We got only four responses, which is definitely less than I was hoping for. I understand that the libraries were going live. There was a holiday and people were on vacation, and on top of that, there was the American Library Association Conference. I think to respond to the survey was probably half an hour of work, and I hope for our next UAT we will get better feedback with more responses. The feedback I got was awesome. People that responded provided a lot of very helpful information. So thank you very much for this. But I have a question for those that reached out to me for a login but never responded to the survey. Is this because of time constraints? Or did you run into issues that you were not able to overcome?
Lloyd: For me, it was just time at the library. You know, we're currently implementing folio right now. And things got pretty intense. And so I did ask for the login credentials. And actually, I started once or twice and then got waylaid. Magda: I understand that. I want to hear that to be sure it was something other than Bulk Edit. Because I'm concerned if it is just difficult to use for you. And if so, what else can we do? Lloyd: I don't think it was the result of the survey at all. It was just my time. Leeda: I would say it was just a combination of bad timing. Again, I feel bad because I was the one who pushed for two weeks. And then two weeks, couldn't cut it in this particular instance, but also my tendency, especially with a group of 15 to 20 of us, is to think, oh, somebody else's done it. That's just my bad habit. I can only promise to do better next time. - Ros: For me, it was a timing thing with going to ALA, and then we tested KIWI. I also had a new employee start, so I am stretched in other ways.
- Magda: There's one more person that didn't volunteer his side of the story. I'm not sure if we have this person on the call. I will reach out in a private message to get feedback.
- Magda: Okay, so let's start with what was submitted, and I will go in the order of how the application progresses, not necessarily the order of the submitted responses. So the first comment is about the landing page and the fact that there is no indication you need to select a Record Identifier to move on because otherwise the file pick-up/drag-and-drop is disabled. And the other suggestion to move the record types selection above the drag-and-drop area is even higher. I do believe we talked about moving record types, and we decided to leave it as it is because it is consistent with other apps like data export, and import. But I do believe that that approach to move it up would make the flow of the mouse better on the screen. What do you think about that?
- Bob: I remember the conversation. And I think I think consistency just won out over what is a better UI design. I'm of mixed minds myself. But I would tend to leave it to keep things consistent.
- Erin: I tend to vote for consistency as well.
- Mark: I'm one that commented on this. It was driving me crazy. Because things were not where they needed to be. So I understand the consistency argument. But for me, the argument I'm going to make is the usability argument. It's enough to drive you batty. I would do things and they just simply would not work. Because the right things weren't selected. And maybe it's just me not paying close enough attention, but to me, it is a real usability issue.
- Magda: I have to admit that I agree with you. It annoys me, but only if I'm logged with both permissions that allow me to select between record types. Right now I'm logged into this environment with permission that gives me access only to inventory items. So the selection is done for me. The question I have for this group is, how often will users working in bulk have the permissions for all the apps?
- Erin: Maybe not all permission. But they might have clusters like users in circulation, inventory and orders, or something like that. So this won't be a problem.
- Ros: I agree with Erin about clusters of permissions.
- Erin: So Jenn is asking about where this pattern is elsewhere in FOLIO?
- Jenn: I'm just trying to understand what we're trying to be consistent with.
- Erin: I don't know if Kimmy is on the call or not might chime in and has thoughts on this...
- Magda: So in Data Import, it's on the top, but you don't make any selection before the job here.
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- Magda: In Data Export, is also on top here. But again, you don't need any selection before you start making that.
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- Jenn: I don't see how either one of those relates to this.
- I think it's maybe more close to the pattern in inventory where you have the drop-down for what you're doing. And then you're searching kind of underneath it. I don't have a strong opinion about this. Is it sticky? I haven't played with this enough. You know, if it's a simple change, then maybe that's a UX win that can make this a little bit less frustrating.
- Magda: Do we have Kimie on the call?
- Erin: It looks like she's on the call.
- Kimie: I am. But I'm having some connectivity issues at the moment. So Magda, do we have to make a decision right now on this or can I talk to you?
- Magda: Yes, we can. We can come back to this.
- Magda: The other issue that Mark brought up, is that once you are on this form, you can try to drag and drop files but it doesn't tell you that you need to select the record identifier before you can drop a file. For me, it is pretty clear that the file drag-and-drop is disabled and you need to do something. And it states "select a file with record identifiers here. Maybe we should add the label here, select Record identifier, or what do you think? What would be the visual cue? For the user, that user knows that this is the first step?
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- Sara: Can you open the drop-down menu to see all the choices?
- Magda: The choices in the drop-down depend on your selection record types, e.g., Users or Inventory. For Users, there are User UUIDs, User Barcodes, External IDs, and Usernames.
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- Erin: So Kimie is saying in the chat that the Record Identifier should have an asterisk? Because that is required. I think people will understand that you have to choose something here.
- Magda: Okay, and we can easily we can implement this.
- Bob: Is there a way to have the system generate a message when you try to drop something on the file drag-and-drop window when it is inactive that says choose an identifier?
- Magda: Yes. The asterisk is definitely the easiest way. And once we do the asterisk, look for the output of a message if the user misses it.
- Magda: So proposed solution?
- Leeda, Erin, Jenn, and Mark: All agreed that moving the UI to display inputs in the order of operations would solve all the issues discussed.
- Magda: I wrote this in Yellow so we know we need to come back to this.
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- Magda: The next issue was about what columns are displayed. We discuss this in March and agreed to this as a group. What are your suggestions? What would you suggest we do?
- Jenn: So this one was my comment. The reason I reacted to item effective location being there instead of the location fields, is that I cannot directly act on effective location. And it seems like I would want to see the columns that hold the values that I'm actually going to act on. I was trying to do an actual task, which was to change the location.
- Magda: So should we get together again, or I can put s survey together to ask what should be pre-selected and which one should be on the full list of options?
- Erin: I can't remember because like everybody else, my brain is soup right now. But did we ever do like a card sort exercise or anything else like that? That might?
- Magda: We did not. What, we did, I think was sometime in March. I don't remember the date. But this was in March...
- Magda: I can I put together a survey, probably as simple a survey. And since we do not have a meeting next week, maybe you can provide your feedback.
- Erin: If you would like me to do that with Qualtrics.
- Magda: Awesome. Thank you.
- Magda: I can send you the list of the fields because obviously, there are more fields than there are here. And then we will discuss.
- Erin: Should the card sort be on the stuff that's here under show columns, or is the card sorted on every inventory value?
- Magda: Should we stick to those fields? Or should we expand? What does the group think?
- Erin: The item record has a lot of stuff on it.
- Magda: Since we are discussing this again, maybe we should start from zero and see what the group thinks.
- Erin: OK.
- Jenn: I'll just say one other thing that was part of this feedback. This is the only opportunity you have to choose these columns. So even if you look at this, and you think it is fine. When I upload my file, it's changing say, the permanent location. When I get to that next screen, I can't make the location one of the columns. If the second screen could have a change so if I forgot to pick something then I can add it. Do you know what I mean?
- Magda: I know what you mean. But I think adding to the pick-list on the other screen would be difficult. I'm not saying it cannot be done. I'm saying it may be difficult, I think it would be easier to implement by making it consistent. So once you select your columns here, the selection persists through all screens, through the "are you sure" form and the confirmation screen.
- Jenn: Another option here is to go minimal on what's displayed and make it more obvious that you can pick things to add.
- Sara: I like Jen's first proposal of potentially adding the picklist to the second screen. But if that's more complicated, then I think forcing us to actually open it and select what we need. To see all the options and then make us choose what we need to include in this operation is the important thing. Because actually, the effective location is really important to have in combination with all three location fields if that is what you're focused on. For example, if you're controlling your permanent location from the Holdings Record, the item actually says none for the permanent location. And so putting the permanent location there would be kind of nonsensical as a default. You would still have to open it and add more. So I like the idea of going minimal and really just forcing you each time to choose what you need for this operation right now. Let me check off what I need and be forced to make that decision, so to speak. I don't think that's a burden.
- Magda: We will come back to this once we have feedback from the survey, and we either will do the way Jenn volunteered with a Pick List organizing the fields. I also like the option of the bare minimum displayed on this screen. But the question is, what would be the bare minimum? Do you want to have only barcodes? Or what do you want to have to be displayed? And I do believe this would also vary from scenario to scenario depending on what fields you are planning to update.
- Leeda: I was just looking at that list and the bare minimum should be barcode and item HRID, then I would like something that kind of prompts me so I don't panic that this is all I can see. Something to say please select more columns here or something.
- Sara: I would say that too, it is kind of like that identifier field, we need something to say select identifier. A prompt. Being up in the Actions menu is actually really far away from the middle panel.
- Magda: Can you repeat that?
- Sara: The Action menu where I need to select the columns is really far away, and just like we were saying for setting the criteria for record identifiers, it actually needs to prompt us by saying select record identifier or whatever it was that we just agreed on, to prompt you to drop down and select what you need. So it's almost like preview of a record match also needs also some kind of like little indicator select from the fields.
- Erin: So Kimie is saying in the chat we could just put a note that says "Choose columns under the actions button." So you can add some text there. I think that I would be more comfortable with these proposals if I felt like I could choose them, and then they would stick. In other words, I don't want to do this every single time I come into the app to deal with user things. So we get to the idea of FOLIO needs a user profile system, which it doesn't have, to be able to save my local custom preferences. I do feel the order there makes sense in some contexts. It doesn't make sense in every context, but there are some contexts where it does. I think Sarah's point about the fact that sometimes the location fields are completely blank is also very valid. That may have been part of where we were when we were first talking about the list. What we could do is create a card sort for all the columns that are listed, a card sort for every field in inventory, and add a question asking what you consider to be the bare minimum, and we can see what comes back.
- Magda: I think the show column approach is consistent with other apps. I'm picking inventory because that's where I spend most of my time. But I know this is the behavior also in other areas in FOLIO as well. So I would not expect this to be so unexpected. I would say that if you don't see what you want to see, you would naturally go to the action menu to select the columns.
- Sara: And Magda, you are absolutely right. We're all new to the system. We're all getting into the system. So we haven't been using it enough to realize that we're going to be trained by each app to do certain things and to look for certain things in certain places. We're still learning where things live. Right now, I would say I would never have thought to click on Actions to find that information, to find more things to add, but ask me in a month, and probably it will be the first thing that comes to mind. But we are also...
- Magda: I understand that this is a new product for you. But the approach of selecting columns is not specific to the Bulk Edit app.
- Erin: It's a UI pattern across FOLIO.
- Magda: Yes.
- Leeda: My programmed reaction from our current system is to go to right-click to add more columns. It is just something to get used to.
- Magda: I think this is just a different approach because your current systems are probably not web-based, and you're talking to the client app. So, let me put in the user feedback that we will follow up with a survey.
- Magda: The next response was about the record count. This is important, and we have five minutes left. But maybe we can start talking about this.
- Magda: The file in this example contains 15 entries. Two of them are errors; there are no matches for those two identifiers. The preview does not show all 13 records that match the list. The idea of the preview is to show the top 10 records.
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- As we discussed, if you want to see more, you would download matched records as a CSV file. If this is not clear, then it needs to be readjusted. Do you think displaying 10 records is insufficient? Should it be more? If it's insufficient then how many would satisfy the need? The other thing to note here is there is a bug right now because there are only 9 instead of 10 records showing in this example preview. So I filed a bug for this. The one thing that I don't I did not understand from the comments is about 11 matched with two errors. So was the result from a different file? If the person who submitted this comment can provide a little bit more feedback, that would be awesome.
- Magda: I will reach out to the person directly. Let's go back and the question of the preview.
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- Sara: Is it possible at the bottom of the screen to have the option to page through more results--next?
- Erin: In this example from Inventory (see below), we are paging the whole screen. In the example in Bulk Edit above, you would need to page part of the screen because you have the errors listed below the preview. I don't think we have any accordions that do paging, but I could be wrong.
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- Magda: Let's talk about what would be the best behavior. Do you want to be able to browse through all the records?
- Sara: I think sometimes the first 10 are not enough.
- Magda: That is why you have the option to see the rest via CSV.
- Sara: Yes, but it may be nice to just see the next 10 on the screen and not have to go through the download process.
- Bob: This is in-app. So we should not have to flip between in-app and CSV. If the system can perform adequately and page through the results, that would be best. But in Sierra, that was the problem, it showed all the results, but the performance was horrible.
- Magda: You nailed it, Bob. This is the balance with performance. On top of it, in Sierra, you were not doing all of this through the Internet. This is one of the reasons we decided to limit the number of records.
- Magda: We are on the top of the hour, and I see people need to leave. I see Amanda has her hand up.
- Amanda: I have a quick question. I don't mind the preview being a short sample list of all of the errors shown. If we have 15 errors, will it show all of them or only 10?
- Magda: You also only have 10 errors. And you can also download the errors in CSV.
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- Magda: We will come back to this next time and also plan to do a survey about it because it is important, and I see this is confusing for everyone. I definitely like to avoid the situation where you do a large bulk edit, and you have to page through them in the UI. This is not something we would like to support. Let's talk about this more at our next meeting. Thank you all for the feedback. The link to the document is in the agenda for today's meeting. Please review and feel free to add any comments if you feel I missed something or if you need to add additional information.
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