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Topic | Who | Description |
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Announcements | PC/TC/CC Chairs | Any quick announcements that make sense...
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How Many Releases per year do we want? | Mike Gorrell | There was a time when we had four releases per year... then three... and in 2023, even though we planned to have three, we only ended up with two releases. We'd like the three councils to share their thoughts on how many releases per year the project should plan to have. The implications of such a target will need to be assessed, but, the goal of this discussion will be to get a sense for what the issues and preferences are from Tri-Council members' perspectives.
Mike's summary: pretty significant consensus that 2 releases per year is best target for FOLIO. We are all interested in App Formalization and seeing if we can decouple FOLIO from the monolithic releases and provide more flexibility. |
What do we want to get out of WOLFcon in 2024? | Mike Gorrell | WOLFCon 2023 was "late" being announced... but by many accounts it was a very successful conference. September 24th is nine months away, but planning will be starting soon. What does the community want to get out of WOLFcon this year? What guidance can we give the planners (to be identified).
Who's going to volunteer?
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How do we make the FOLIO project attractive to new member organizations? | Mike Gorrell | The FOLIO project aspires to have an engaged and dynamic community, including organizations that contribute as members. We have not added many member organizations over the last few years. What can we do to ensure that the FOLIO project is attractive to organizations, to help sustain FOLIO?
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Chat transcript:
Jennifer Eustis 9:04 AM
For me as well
Ros, Amanda L to You (Direct Message) 9:04 AM
did you add attendees to the right minutes?
Mike Gorrell to Everyone 9:05 AM
Some problems with my connection
Ros, Amanda L to You (Direct Message) 9:05 AM
never mind :-)
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:11 AM
AFAIK we have no way to determine if the number of bugs is impacted by the release frequency
It’s worth keeping in mind that the larger the release the more disruptive it is going to be because of how much is in it, which makes it a somewhat self fulfilling prophecy that they require large amounts of effort to implement in an organisation
You to Everyone 9:16 AM
It would be interesting to consider how the application formalization process would impact this.
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:16 AM
For dev teams, then having three releases with three feature freeze (hard stop of all new development), also cause us to have less sprints for feature development
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:16 AM
Feature based releases are very challenging within FOLIO due to the amount of synchronisation across apps / development teams to line up the features for each release e.g. when one team is ahead of plan and another behind
Mike Gorrell to Everyone 9:17 AM
I agree - we need to understand how the app formalization will impact the size and frequency of releases.
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:18 AM
Not sure, who can answer that question at this point
Tod Olson to Everyone 9:18 AM
I don't think we can answer that until we have some practical experience.
Ingolf Kuss to Everyone 9:20 AM
That is a good Point, Kristin, The question now was about the current release process. If we will have smaller platforms, more releases per year could become possible. In general, the application formalization process could lead to some kind of continuous deployment process in the end (which would be desirable).
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:21 AM
More releases being higher overhead for development teams is due to architectural constraints and how FOLIO does release not an intrinsic aspect of the frequency of releases
Jenn Colt to Everyone 9:22 AM
Going to two releases should spur the councils to improve the inter council interactions in the review process
Marc Johnson 9:22 AM
How so?
Jenn Colt 9:23 AM
If there is a dependable schedule consider having more dependable guidelines around the timeline for approvals. Have clarity about parallel vs serial processes, etc. Maybe nothing changes but there’s more pressure to get the release you want if there are fewer.
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:25 AM
Less releases does not require more training of staff …
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:26 AM
We have customers who have wanted to skip a release
Alexis Manheim 9:27 AM
I was just wondering if hosting providers do all the updates for every customer...
Kirstin Kemner-Heek 9:27 AM
We have to … or skip.
Alexis Manheim 9:27 AM
For Stanford since we are self hosted, we would not do three a year.
Thomas Trutt 9:28 AM
We get every update from our provider, but they as was mentioned have to set up their internal tooling before it can be released to use, that is at least a few weeks on their end.
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:29 AM
Ian, how do you solve the synchronisation of which features challenge with feature releases?
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:32 AM
Bigger features in fewer areas leads to an unevenness for development teams that presents other challenges for how FOLIO plans work
A major constraint for the current releases is the practice of manually regression testing the entire system
That effort will only ever get bigger (unless folks start cutting features)
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:34 AM
The manual testing (Bugfest testing) has been partly replaced by automatic testing
Tod Olson to Everyone 9:28 AM
I think what Marc is talking about is also related to the tight coupling between different areas of FOLIO.
Marc Johnson 9:35 AM
That is certainly part of it
Though that’s highly codependent upon also being organisationally capable of managing independent releases of apps (for want of a better term)
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:36 AM
If the automated testing is trusted, it should be leader to reduced effort of manual testing for each release
It could be worth trying to measure the ratio between those over time
Thomas Trutt to Everyone 9:26 AM
I also feel that because of the complexity of FOLIO there are really no small features. - another argument for 2 releases a year.
Marc Johnson 9:30 AM
Or an argument for smaller decomposition of features to facilitate more releases
Tod Olson 9:35 AM
Yeah, I'm looking forward to a time when we can look at boundaries and interfaces, which I think will be necessary for such a decomposition.
Marc Johnson 9:37 AM
Technical aspects are part of it.
How we design both the features themselves and the way they are rolled out also needs to change to accomplish this
Jenn Colt to Everyone 9:36 AM
It feels like we are missing some strategic planning steps for FOLIO if we really want to hit these big goals
Marc Johnson 9:39 AM
You know my thoughts on this
I think that most major work should be driven by strategic intentions
Without it, it’s very easy for work to pull in different directions and lack cohesion
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:41 AM
+ 1 Tod re. hands on sessions, workshop sessions
Jenn Colt to Everyone 9:42 AM
The code4lib workshop days is a nice model
Simeon Warner (he/him) to Everyone 9:43 AM
Yes
Craig McNally to Everyone 9:44 AM
I think it worked out well
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:44 AM
Yes, that worked well
Jennifer Eustis to Everyone 9:44 AM
I think it is a good idea. It was hard being hybrid though
Alexis Manheim to Everyone 9:44 AM
Yes, the council meetings after were great.
Paul Moeller to Everyone 9:44 AM
I agree
Brooks Travis to Everyone 9:45 AM
I like the idea of a “workshop/training” day, either pre or post-conference. I think it should be in addition to the in-person council meetings.
Alexis Manheim to Everyone 9:45 AM
Pre work makes sense, Jeremy
Alexis Manheim to Everyone 9:46 AM
I was very happy with what the PC did too, Martina
Martina Schildt | VZG to Everyone 9:47 AM
Agree to Charlotte - 100%
Ingolf Kuss to Everyone 9:47 AM
++Charlotte
Jennifer Eustis to Everyone 9:47 AM
+1 Charlotte
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:47 AM
What topics are valuable for developers to attend?
Charlotte Whitt 9:48 AM
That’s a question for you Marc 😄
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:48 AM
How developers and POs / SMEs interact at WOLFCon should reflect the overall cultural norms of the community
Jennifer Eustis to Everyone 9:49 AM
I'd volunteer to be part of the planning group
Kirstin Kemner-Heek to Everyone 9:50 AM
+1 Jesse
Jana Freytag | VZG to Everyone 9:48 AM
I think getting the separate Groups of roles (POs, Conveners, SMEs, Devs, SysOps) to talk in different combinations on how to work even better with each other would make some great Slots for WOLFCon
Marc Johnson 9:50 AM
What is stopping us doing that outside of WOLFCons?
Jennifer Eustis to Everyone 9:51 AM
+1 Jesse. This is also helpful for those who attend hybrid to get up and move a bit
Tod Olson to Everyone 9:47 AM
@Charlotte Whitt , yes, finding ways for developers and SMEs to engage with each other would be quite good.
Marc Johnson 9:51 AM
That effort does not need to be exclusive to WOLFCon especially as many developers don’t attend WOLFCon
Simeon Warner (he/him) to Everyone 9:51 AM
Long lunches, regular breaks
Thomas Trutt 9:52 AM
I started a lot of conversations that cut short by lunch ending.
Marc Johnson to Everyone 9:53 AM
Folks could consider an unconference style for part of it, given folks want to encourage more dynamic topic emergence
Tod Olson to Everyone 9:53 AM
Thinking about volunteering, but need a better sense of my capacity this summer.
Jennifer Eustis 9:53 AM
The more the merrier!
Ian Walls to Everyone 9:40 AM
If we could get to breaking down the monolith, that would be the right solution. feature-based releases are an interim measure until that's possible. I know there are some concerns about the different challenges it presents, but we can already see how poorly the timed releases are working. I think it's far more likely that changing the approach would be an improvement for us than a detriment.
Thomas Trutt 9:42 AM
This was my thought as well.. Ie, Circ’s new feature will that 6-weeks while flow jet’s may only take 3. (Fake numbers)
Ian Walls 9:45 AM
I presume that development teams can reasonably estimate how long features will take. Given all that up front, an initial schedule could agreed on. if one team is done with all their work early, great. once all the new features are ready, then the integration testing can begin
Marc Johnson 9:54 AM
If those estimates were reliable, which they inherently aren’t, then we wouldn’t have slippage of the current release schedules
Even if they were, how do you handle one team delivering a 3 week feature and another a 6 week feature in the same release?
What does the 3 week feature team do with the other 3 weeks?
Jenn Colt to Everyone 9:55 AM
Going with FOLIO isn’t the same as being a member
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:56 AM
E.g. Duke
Jenn Colt to Everyone 9:55 AM
We need to understand the advantage of being a member and not just a customer.
Jennifer Eustis 9:55 AM
What are the benefits versus not being a member?
Marc Johnson 9:56 AM
In part, helping to fund the project, which makes it more likely to stick around as an open source thing
Ian Walls to Everyone 9:57 AM
ByWater Solutions is not a member of FOLIO SMLLC because we believe that showing up and participating speaks louder and is more effective than a membership model.
Jenn Colt to Everyone 9:57 AM
How does the rest of governance access feedback given just to PC?
Jana Freytag | VZG to Everyone 9:58 AM
I have to run to the RA SIG Meeting. Bye all 👋
Jennifer Eustis to Everyone 9:58 AM
+1 Tod. I would add also that there really isn't any reporting in FOLIO
Charlotte Whitt to Everyone 9:59 AM
Sorry, I have to run. Bye
You to Everyone 9:58 AM
Tod, what are your two black eyes? For the notes.
Tod Olson 10:00 AM
First thing isn't a black eye, just a better understanding of how your membership contribution helps the project.
Data Import is the black eye.
Christopher Spalding [EBSCO] (he/him) to Everyone 10:00 AM
Thanks Alexis. EBSCO is still looking at ways to pull the smaller orgs into the community. This came up in the OLF Board meeting this week as well.
Simeon Warner (he/him) 10:01 AM
Glad that you are looking at it Christopher. I think also as a community we have to look at what we offer